Crna vs md reddit I was hoping you guys would have dealt with this issue by now, ie. The CRNA has been working in the heart room for 15 years. They can never truly supervise, just sign charts. 2/3 the pay for 1/3 the stress (<comedy). I’ve been giving 100% of myself to the dream of being a doctor in the US and after putting so much effort into it he is telling me to give up. Simply put, surgeons can't give anesthesia or crtique anything the CRNA does. Easiest route out of three - NP Best money/time balance - CRNA Most autonomous with Prestige - MD CRNA is a best career choice imo unless you’re obsessed with becoming a MD or don’t have financial resources to support yourself through 3 years of full-time CRNA school. A surgeon knows shit about anesthesia, and anesthesiologists. dual certification is a long road though. I ultimately decided on CAA and I have been extremely happy with my choice. 99 cGPA and 4. Context: OMS1. I'm currently an ER nurse and my day to day includes administering medications, placing a Foley, charting, starting IVs, drawing blood labs, taking vitals, cleaning patients or taking them to the bathroom, fingerstick glucose checks, reporting abnormal vitals/lab values to the MD, doing focused assessments on patients, transporting patients (Firstly disclaimer, not a doctor but researched this when picking a surgeon for a previous illness). Many anesthesia nurse programs are only two years long, which to me seems dreadfully inadequate. Anesthesia depends on surgeries expertise and knowledge of the surgery, and surgery depends on anesthesia’s knowledge and expertise of anesthesia, the patients stability, etc. As someone who worked extremely close to CRNA and anesthesiologists, and was right there in the rooms while surgeons were happening, they were performing the same functions in about 99% of the cases in the OR. They all found CRNA husbands and let them take care of them. The issue is that I often have trouble teaching to their level of knowledge, which even more than halfway through their training is usually well below an early CA1. The higher end is typically for shorter-term locums. I have worked in a cancer research lab for almost 2 years and will have attended and presented my work at 2 research conferences by the end of this upcoming spring semester. CRNA school is 4 years of nursing school. We would like to show you a description here but the site won’t allow us. 5 vs 10 years for 2x more salary for the rest of your lift May 21, 2014 · That being said, I'm also worried that the job market for CRNA's isn't as stable as it for MD's. I don’t call for emergence or extubation. If you are going to get a doctorate in nursing to be a CRNA, why not just go the MD route? I am starting my RN to BSN this fall and will complete it in a year. CRNAs are limited to anesthesia. 724K subscribers in the nursing community. AA has been beaten to death, I shall throw in my 2 cents to this conversation. All a CRNA can do is anesthesia, a physician is not a stuck so to speak. Take a typical, public MD program and check the tuition vs a typical CRNA program. CRNA. 2 years of ICU experience (so depends on how fast you can get in). This sub is intended as a repository of sources and a place of discussion regarding independent and inappropriate midlevel practice. A MD with 25 years of practice experience, the last 15 being in an ASC. MD Anesthesiologist is redundant. Befriend your teachers and go to study sessions if they are offered. They hated it and wanted to quit. CRNA school would be a simple 3 years. I don't understand why any MD would teach a CRNA despite all the bold claims they make. Fair, but it’s important to keep in mind that It’s easier to be in the higher percentile of crna pay as a crna because the field is already defacto lifestyle oriented. Couldn’t be happier. For both specialties you are working with patients in vulnerable moments/situations. Dependent on your personality. No one to turn to “When shit hits the fan”. The knowledge base for an Anesthesiologist is greater, you get more opportunities as an MD than CRNA ( fellowship), and the pay is greater. sure, degree holders are graduates. Anesthesiology assistants. You could literally have a 1:4 MD:CRNA and bill QZ just to avoid the risk of medicare fraud with TEFRA. Then interventional rads became the hottest thing since sliced bread and now diagnostic has shot up because of all of the ir candidates and more exposure. They never take call and barely work more than 3 days a week. I usually inform MD when I drop the patient off in pacu so they can do the next pre op if they haven’t already. I am also contemplating taking a year to do med school pre-reqs. Ultimately, it's impossible for anyone here to tell you to do MD/DO vs RN-->CRNA at this stage. I’m pretty sure anesthesia practice in Canada 2023 is “solo MD”, not “anesthesia care team” As for Anesthesia. Aug 15, 2020 · CRNA school is the schooling required for a registered nurse to become a certified registered nurse anesthetist. The year I applied em was more competitive than anesthesia. For reference, I am a current junior with a 3. Also, MD/DOs are protecting sub specialties against CRNAs Sources: American Association of Nurse Anesthetists; Council on Accreditation of Nurse Anesthesia Educational Programs; National Board of Certification and Recertification for Nurse Anesthetists Impressive set of diverse research to support their arguments. For the purposes of billing QZ = no MD. In the last few months, the more I read about the abysmal educational disparity between NPs (even though I work with a few and adore them) and MD/DOs the more it solidified and resulted in a paradigm shift from going the NP track to gunning for MD/DO. Good luck with whatever path you choose. The MCAT (Medical College Admission Test) is offered by the AAMC and is a required exam for admission to medical schools in the USA and Canada. OP, you can tell that that “anesthesiologist” is actually a disgruntled CRNA because if they were actually an MD, they’d know that the CRNA community is doing its best to displace the MDs and have complete 100% autonomous practice (which is scary AF) considering how little school they have, relative to the docs, and they’d be pushing On the other hand, also really enjoyed anesthesia. This provides a CRNA with more autonomy than an AA. Nonetheless the salaey of an MD will be much greater than that of a CRNA, I make CRNA money as a travel nurse for 36 hours. 150K in near future, it spells out the doom of our field even faster: it gives even more financial incentive hospitals and anesthesia management companies and even mature anesthesia group to replace MD with CRNA. that being said, it seems to me from what you’re describing (and from the countries you’ve named) that these differences are from MD vs MBBS training. PAs are more versatile (in my opinion) and their schooling is well regulated. I understand the CRNA vs MD contemplation, but honestly PAs make less and have less autonomy so for me, that wouldn’t be in the same conversation. What could this imply for midlevels? IMO if outcomes remain the same, crnas would end up as glorified CAAs. The most effective weapon against MD anesthesiologists and their agenda is to do a great job and have your patients know it was a CRNA, not an MD. I’m not sure but I might consider working in Canada for around $600K CAD per year… it would be a different style of practice . I have met only 3 CRNAs (2 male, 1 female) who only went into school because they want money. Students can either receive an MSN, DNP or PhD degree when completing Nurse Anesthesia school. I also like to add that I would be applying to mostly DO schools and two in state MD. CRNAs & MD Anesthesiologist do in fact GET ALONG just fine. I supervise CRNAS and teach residents and fellows . I work with plenty of CRNAs and we all get along just fine (same pay, benefits, job role etc) but obviously it's a different situation in the more rural parts of the country. Open menu Open navigation Go to Reddit Home Apr 25, 2021 · Richard Novak, MD is a Stanford physician board certified in anesthesiology and internal medicine. All with better hours and less call than anesthesia. Anesthesiologists (MD/DOs and CRNAs) are experts in the field of anesthesiology in which both physicians and CRNAs both testify in court as expert anesthesia witnesses. While yes as a resident you just have 1 patient (As an attending you could be covering 2-4 rooms) you are doing a lot for that patient. Most of the time the relationship between anesthesia and surgery is very collegial. Therefore coupled with the fact that anesthesiologist is not a protected title means that Anesthesiologist does NOT mean physician. true. I'm not sure how important patient interaction really is, and ophtho clinic does seem like it could get boring, but for anesthesia sitting in the OR without being the patient's primary doc also may make me want more patient contact too. The need for 'supervision' for independent CRNAs is a very flimsy belief. S in Nursing, two years minimum in the ICU and three years in school for Nurse Anesthesia) one could get a B. There are distinct differences between a CRNA and an AA. Ehh, with anesthesiology matching almost all spots, more crna schools, increasingly more bedside nurses leaving, more high school kids wanting to go crna, increasing AAs, it’s coming just a matter as of when. I do what I want for the cases. Anyone here has the ability to become a CRNA if you want that salary. However, in the coming years, most schools will be transitioning their programs to purely DNP or PhD programs . Click to share on Reddit (Opens in new window) Related. Aug 18, 2023 · Thankfully I am in a very pro AA city, and don't have to worry about CRNA politics. Novak is an Adjunct Clinical Professor in the Department of Anesthesiology, Perioperative and Pain Medicine at Stanford University, the Medical Director at Waverley Surgery Center in Palo Alto, California, and a member of the Associated Anesthesiologists Medical Group in Palo Alto, California. A friend in crna school is preparing for their first child in their last year Scope of practice? MD/DO > CRNA Physicians can become critical care docs after residency. So if you go as fast as possible assuming you get accepted into nursing school and CRNA schools the first time you apply, and minimal breaks in between due to administrative dates, licensure exams, credentialling etc. This isn't meant to be a bash thread on CRNA's, but when AANA posts statements like: "By carefully examining overcompensation of physician anesthesiologists for services that can be provided as safely and more cost-effectively by CRNAs This year all three hospitals posted jobs for crna on gasworks. The #1 social media platform for MCAT advice. but it’s an oranges-to-apples situation since education concentrations are different per year level. Posted by u/lotrfan12345 - No votes and 1 comment We would like to show you a description here but the site won’t allow us. There’s not a physician who does anesthesia within 100 miles of where I work. A CRNA cn practice independently. Like you, I went back and forth about medical school vs. Goes back to the hospital and is asked to supervise a CRNA in the heart room. Dr. The exception where CRNAs are paid heavy is when a CRNA is doing QZ somewhere in the middle of nowhere especially in an opt out state. The CAAs I’ve met love their job, make good money, and overall seem more humble/willing to work together than CRNAs, though that’s a large generalization. The rural CRNA thing could be an issue, but it all depends on where you want to live. March 3, 2021 June 26, 2021 Amanda Xi. For some that=fun vs lame for others that = scary vs safe. I call MD when I need to bounce a question or if I need an extra set of hands. If length of training is a huge concern, or you want to provide especially outpatient anesthesia or are okay with being supervised (in some states) than CRNA might be your path Don't get behind with the work. An MD is taught that the body is a number of organ systems and and how to treat each separately, and possibly goes more in depth on that than a DO (nominally both cover the same basic As an anesthesia resident that has worked with them in the past I think it’s a great career if you know you are totally ok working in a current CAA state (no one can predict the future). 26 votes, 56 comments. Sleeping and lining the patient, coming off pump, doing the case start to finish every day. MD Anesthesiologist hospitals only. If you want the true dental anesthesia experts, there are dentists that do dental anesthesia residencies but there aren't many around. Anesthesia, despite concerns of CRNAs, has done well on that ratio. surgeons used to be the Anesthesiologist and the surgeon to cut costs in private practice it was only until legal issues got involved that the presence of Anesthesiologists became a must and the perspective changed and it’ll only grow more. CRNAs will cost less but in some states might require some sort of supervision from the dentist. CRNA pay in my part of the country is typically $125/hr to 200/hr depending on whether its W2 vs 1099. The Nursing studies seem like garbage on a stick with terrible methodologies and simply "no statistical difference in outcomes in CRNA + MD anesthesiologist hospitals vs. My questions are: How much could a MD make working the same hours and no call as the CRNA or CAA? How difficult is it to get jobs like this? Shadowing in anesthesia, I was always wondering what the MD was up to while I hung out with the CRNA’s. Most of the time it is a very symbiotic relationship. 3/4 of my cases I induce and tube without MD in the room. Now I’m graduating and matched anesthesia. That being said CRNA school is MUCH more attainable at this point. First one is knowledge base, second is flexibility and 3rd reason is financial. Often referred to as "CRNA only" allows the CRNA to bill 100% of the possible units and is blind to any MD involvement. Study. I got to talking with the crna about how they liked their career and what my plans were, and my god I have never met someone so pessimistic and miserable. With CAA you are done in 2 years after UG, with CRNA you get your BSN, work as an ICU nurse, and do the 3 years of CRNA school, at that point for a couple more years you could've just been an anesthesiologist. When I got into med school you could do rads with a 220 easily. CRNA would give you more options in terms of location, but if you really prefer medical vs nursing, then look into CAA or MD. it would bore me to tears. But it feels so drab compared to becoming a doctor. Stop and correct patients calling you "doctor". Probably wont see any pay disparity in major cities or desirable places to live. CAA (and I also considered PA too before finding CAA). The only things a MD could do is some minor invasive surgical privileges since they are a MD… also, this is EXTREMELY state dependent too. Every CRNA only and I see CRNA and CAA working 3 days a week and no call making like $250k. Got my BSN to become a CRNA but ultimately went to med school. There's some great APRNs out there, and also some shitty ones. The human body fascinates me. No one here went to MDA school that’s not a thing, just a goofy term coined by CRNA schools. Took me 6 years total to get my BSN and pre reqs but it’s worth it. Places that pay on the lower end are usually having trouble getting/keeping people. Keep in mind in the US, anesthesia in practice can be managing 4 ORs with CRNAs, but there is also a lot of flexibility in terms of lifestyle and inpatient vs outpatient, pain management etc. I’m a CAA in my late 30s and have been practicing for 10 years. As for me disliking not "being in charge" as a CRNA, I mean I wouldn't like my job either way as an MD or CRNA, but being a CRNA has part-time opportunities and there are good lifestyle specialties in medicine (psych is there even if I bomb Step 1 May 31, 2016 · I just don't understand why. I find it weird how so many AAs and MDs on on other subreddits act like CRNAs and MD Anesthesiologist don’t get along or constantly infighting. Plus the options for business minded folks are unlimited. Old IMG (2014), went unmatched this season. Lots of discussions about APRNs practicing independently, and whether or not this should be allowed. Nursing is still my first love and why I am also just considering CRNA school. I know a few folks with dual certification( CRNA/NP or PA/AA) and they have a much broader scope of practice as they are basically utilized as intensivists and can cover OR/ICU/CCU/Pain Clinic/ER consults, etc. I would probably need to take 1-2 years of prereqs to get into medical school + the 8 years of additional training. Jan 5, 2011 · Although the topic of CRNA vs. Briefly explain to them your title, and that you perform anesthesia. Aside from the obvious issue of “DOA” for anesthesiologists who trained at osteopathic medical schools, use of MDA or MD anesthesiologist further legitimizes CRNAs as alternative equivalents. I push my own meds. Let the public know you are. Based on my calculations, to pursue a CRNA path from my current standing of a BS degree in chemistry and not nursing it seems like it would almost take as long to become a CRNA as it almost would to just go to medical school and become an anesthesiologist MD. Feb 27, 2010 · Please correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that CRNA services (NOT involving supervision or medical direction by an anesthesiologist) are compensated at nearly or exactly the same rate by insurance companies and the government as an anesthesiologist is compensated. /r/MCAT is a place for MCAT practice, questions, discussion, advice, social networking, news, study tips and more. I have backup money for a private college and MD in a top branch (RD, Med, Peds,ObGyn) but Im getting Anesthesia in a top Govt college at my rank. It'll bite you in the butt. attending life When I learned of CRNA school I felt it was a great continuation of my passion and I'm so thankful my path led me to it. Tuition at my (private) medical program is actually lower than many of the CRNA programs I was looking at, though I am here for 4 years instead of 3, so there is that. As someone heavily considering anesthesia, these types of militant comments by CRNA's are seriously worrying. An AA is required to work under the DIRECT supervision on an MD (anesthesiologist). Same MD took over some hospitals up north and started giving those positions to crna that were also only for MDs The group uses a MDA supervising CRNA anesthesia care model. I certainly don’t make 500k, but I earn my high salary. HOWEVER, the practice can be run anyway the owners choose. HOWEVER in a hot market like today, if you are willing to churn I would argue you can make way more in anesthesia as a new grad by taking all the calls no one wants and working like a dog. you would probably be working as a CRNA as soon as eight years from now. I’ve also seen a trend with people going back to school for nursing with the goal of CRNA making admission much more competitive. S in Computer Science, get a job starting at around 70k, job hop after year 2, and by the fifth year one is a midlevel software engineer making I've seen a lot of posts about APRN vs MD. It’s a rigorous schooling, not “basics of anesthesia”. In 2015, for me as a sophomore, i was far too immature to make that decision until i neared graduation. I think it can be more complex than just hospitals trying to turn a profit Some other things in play over the last few years: (1) physician shortages, (2) more people with access to care, (3) prioritization based on urgency, (4) physician burnout, (5) geographic distribution of physicians, (6) new laws and models for reimbursements/pay, etc. When I was a medical student I shyed away from anesthesia, which in part had to do with CRNAs. I’m considering the medical school path to have the opportunity to be a physician in another specialty. For nurse anesthetists, we encourage you to use either CRNA, certified registered nurse anesthetist, or nurse I’ve even considered an MD/PhD. 0 science GPA. Anesthesia is probably one of the the specialties where efficiency is highly valued (Getting the pt induced, waking them up, etc. Aug 19, 2011 · actually, if CRNA makes 80K vs. CAAs aren’t as widespread as CRNAs. these are my opinions and what I observed in my tier 2 city and my father (who is also a doctor) told me about these things Lets go even further. I knew my personality could “handle” following orders (and even physicians answer to someone somehow) but I realized how much more I’d enjoy being more of a team leader if I’m gonna be doing it the rest of my life. 100k + debt (though this really depends on the program and how much you can save as a nurse ((in many places nurses make more than residents))) The advice I would give, do NOT go to CRNA school just because you come from money and want to have your own money. CRNA vs. It’s a great time to be an anesthesiologist. Anyways, I was shadowing an anesthesia tech at the hospital I’m volunteering at, and I got to speak with some Anesthesiologists and a contracted CRNA. CRNA school can be very competitive to get accepted into. A DO is very similar to an MD functionally but the philosophy behind the training is slightly different. Then 2-3 years of CRNA school. CRNA’s have good lifestyles, and it would be the more reasonable route to go if I end up 100% set on anesthesia. A CRNA with a 50th percentile compensation package typically will work 40 hour weeks and take bare minimum call, if any. And don't even think about questioning the infallible "stacked cubes" graphic. MDA does the pre op, CRNA does everything in the case, MDA signs the chart at beginning and end of case, MDA signs patients out of PACU. CAA seems like the best return on investment both financially and from associated One is fast paced, exciting, the other is stable and predictable. I wanted to go the MD route, but considering my age (28 at the time), the fact I had children, the time commitment, and the possibility of not Matching into anesthesia- CRNA was the clear choice for me. Most don't fear teaching SRNAs per se. Out west, there are a lot of MD only or MD mainly practices in rural settings. Despite this, anesthesia nursing is somehow STILL more selective and rigorous than all the joke nurse practioner degree programs out there. $250k for 30ish hours a week is very doable in anesthesia. Please if your considering crna school don’t let other Reddit post deter you from perusing crna school. Pls note: My interests are all Sep 10, 2013 · if you like anesthesia CRNA or AA are both good careers. CRNA is clearly a better option practically. On top of this, the education for an MD is much more financially burdensome throughout those years. I got to be acquaintances with many of the CRNAs and quickly understood what their anesthesia care model meant. But I’m still deciding. I would always advise people to MD/DO as opposed to NP especially for three main reason. Not for necessarily going into anesthesia as a MD. If you know you want guaranteed autonomy, and to be best prepared for the hardest cases and have a broader overall career scope do MD. Posted by u/Frosty-Wind7917 - 7 votes and 36 comments I was watching a youtube video of a new CRNA who posted her first paycheck and I was floored. This is a fairly large salary gap, but keep in mind that an MD goes through about 9-11 years more of school/training after acquiring their bachelor’s, while a CRNA spends about 3-5 years after getting their bachelor’s. I was deciding between psych and anesthesia which I do think have quite a bit of similarity! I love CNS pharmacology, which are prevalent in both. I've never heard of a job turning someone down for being an AA vs. ) There is also a lot going on during a case. I am interested in both CRNA (DNP program) and med school because I love to learn. In the 9 years minimum it would take to become a CRNA straight out of high school (4 years B. Identify yourself appropriately; CRNA, nurse anesthetist. makes more sense to go md/do up front if you know that is This subreddit is a place where high income professionals of all types can ask, answer, discuss, and debate the personal finance and investing questions specific to our unique situations without being criticized, ostracized, or downvoted simply for having a high income and "first world" problems. Both are great fields! Both make great income! CRNA’s DEFINITELY take the edge in lifestyle-work balance. The only downside right now is state restriction, but I only foresee more and more states allowing CAAs. Sure you will make less, but a no call anesthesiologist probably still makes more than an FM doc in most places. AA would guarantee me a 100% possibility to work in Anesthesia, while I could risk not matching in medical school. In fact, many medical schools are actually cheaper than CRNA programs on a year-to-year basis. Was considering doing anesthesia and going into pain medicine which obviously has a lot of psych as well. By the time you finish nursing school, work for a year or two, then complete a CRNA or DNAP program, it will be a very similar timeline. Ultimately its this independent practice push and the false equivalency that is being drawn between MD and CRNA training that is to blame. I don’t sit cases . Nursing gave me a solid income and a stabile career that I loved and anesthesia is an extension of my love for critical care. She was making almost $24k monthly, pre-tax! Of course she was able to work as an RN while she was in "CRNA school", meanwhile us med students just accumulate debt year after year. Further it For someone who has shadowed multiple specialties of medicine, Anesthesia is something I could really see myself apart of for the rest of my career. Either one is perfectly capable of providing anesthesia for dental procedures. I would say it's really CAA vs MD. Should I throwaway my investments at a private college or should I take up Anaesthesia in a top Govt college and pursue it, which Im sure I will be able to do well. I work 2 hrs east LA, in that area an MD anesthesiologist took over most of those hospital in that area, he posted OB positions for crna that were only for MDs before. I’d guess that $150/hr is pretty close to the average. I'm an anesthesia resident in my last year. I agree with the above sentiment that CRNA/CAA is one of the best gigs in all of healthcare. That said, many successful people with kids doing either MD or CRNA. CAA 6 min read. CNA few years, then LPN for a few years. . There’s not such thing as a MDA, it’s just MD lol. Anesthesiologists know how to give anesthesia and can oversee CRNAs or AAs. Rather you need to think about what job you want to still be doing in 20 years, are you OK with the "bread and butter", and how replaceable you are. A doctor in the US just told me to go to nursing school or get another degree. Before you reflexively downvote, hear me out: I've been doing a bit of thinking lately re: matching outcomes, and believe that if you are more or less ambivalent about WHERE you match, and are fine with doing primary care specialties, a Caribbean MD is superior to a US DO. When you're good at anesthesia, you can coast through a lot of cases and have a lot of downtime during the day because patients are stable and easy to keep that way. CRNA’s condense what they NEED to know about the body and anesthesia into 10-12 months of class time and 2 years of clinicals where most clear 1,200 cases during that time. I'm currently two months from finishing my "LPN2RN" track. I find the whole thing to be a bit ridiculous and very unfair. Skip to main content. Plus, a minimum of 2 years in ICU is a challenge in itself. Mar 3, 2021 · MD/DO anesthesiologist vs. In med school, you may change your mind and want surgery. But it hasn’t expanded residencies as fast as PM&R or EM or radiology, which all got similar interest for similar reasons, so between that and the residency accreditation merger, I think it has just been more competitive and selective on the part of PDs who might prefer to We would like to show you a description here but the site won’t allow us. I am currently finishing my respiratory therapy AA program in California, and I am very interested in pursuing anesthesia of some sort and I am currently debating between going to med school to become an anesthesiologist, going out of state to become an anesthesiology assistant OR going back to nursing school right after I graduate respiratory school and possibly pursuing an CRNA in the future. " Unless you 100% know you want anesthesia PA is the way to go. Feb 19, 2024 · If you are talking about CRNA vs MD, that is a different story since CRNA salary is closer to MD's. It is designed to highlight the differences between a medical doctor and midlevels in areas including training, research, outcomes, and lobbying. If you want to be the best or most skilled, you become a physician, if you just want a job that pays well, you should still probably become a physician. Crna here who was in your exact same position. I think a lot of people struggle with wanting to go MD or CRNA and pursue nursing for various reasons then the reality of working in healthcare becomes an additional factor. Nov 26, 2019 · most CRNA schools want 2 years icu experience at the time you apply, so a minimum of 3 years between crna school and nursing school, and thats IF you find a ICU position straight away (which no doubt will be extremely competitive due to everyone and their moms wanting to be a crna) so 8. How NP mills and online degrees are a fucked up mess. Peer-review studies showed that teams composed of MD/CRNA vs MD/CAA showed no different outcomes. sliigbjxrobsfxcjtjmfoyqcvsvvqszebvdhnewpeesomugwjzkkvidbdiuixoipgiemgmesrx